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[ar] What should be correct code-letters for Arabic ?


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#1 mmnworld

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 04:26 PM

hi all

its all about the language all the arabic talking countries uses one language its ar just two letters we can make it ar-AR

all the other ar-sa, ar-eg, ar-sy,....etc. are the same with no different and its meaningless to have all those localization. so if u can just make it one localization just like ar-ar or ar-me or some thing if it must have four letters.

mghonim opend that topic about the arabic localization.

so it would be great to delete all the ar-XX and make only one ar-AR.

#2 Goofy

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 11:28 PM

mellow.gif Things seem a bit complicated : you suggest to switch every ar-XX to a unique ar-AR but mghonim told us there was no such thing as ar-AR :
QUOTE
I am afraid there is no such thing as ar-AR. Sorry...



So what must we do exactly ?

--For BabelZillaMenu extension I changed the ar for a ar-AR and uploaded your previous locale (which was "ar"), then registered you as translator for it.
There is only one string new to translate

Tell us what would be best solution.



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#3 mmnworld

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 10:34 PM

ok thnx

i know that there is no such athing like ar-AR it was just a suggesion to solve the broplem of four letters localization

thank you for being helpful

#4 mghoniem

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 08:49 PM

Greetings,

The official language of Arabic countries is Arabic (ar). Some people call it "classic" Arabic in contrast with vernacular Arabic, the latter could differ from one country to the other. With regards to serious paper publications (and software), the vernacular idioms are not used.

Since most Babelzilla related translations are likely to use the classic Arabic language, there is no point in using a regional four-letter language code ar-XX, that would otherwise refer to the vernacular variant of some country like Egypt (ar-EG) or Saudi Arabia (ar-SA). Defaulting to one of these four-letter codes is likely to be politically incorrect, albeit functionally not important. Things can however get trickier if the four-letter locale takes into account regional settings like regional pecularities concerning calendar dates (month names do vary regionally even in the classic litterature).

I would suggest unifying all Arabic translations under the two-letter code (ar), provided that mozilla products/plugins can figure out that ar-XX inherits from (ar) and use the latter by default whenever a specific ar-XX locale is missing.

Another option would be to automatically copy all (ar) tagged translations into ar-XX ones, once the translation is complete.

I guess we need to have a discussion about that matter and take a sensible decision. The question is two fold :
  1. Linguistically speaking, no one uses vernacular Arabic in software localizations
  2. Can Mozilla products use/inherit the generic ar instead of a specific ar-XX locale whenever the latter is missing ?
Thanks.

Mohammad

#5 mghoniem

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 09:35 PM

More food for thought here:
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/index.html

See point 2, 4 and appendix D in particular. smile.gif

Regards,

Mohammad

#6 Goofy

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 09:52 PM

smile.gif thanks for informations about this complicated (for me) question. I am afraid it is getting even more complicated (for me) with more detailed information mellow.gif smile.gif

Please tell us what should be the best valid solution for BabelZilla : you suggest we should have an ar language valid for whatever "ar-somewhere" may be needed ?
(I previously set that ar langcode : shall I restore it now ?)

btw : an Arab-speaking forum will probably be available in the coming hours smile.gif






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#7 mghoniem

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 10:07 PM

QUOTE(Goofy @ Sep 5 2006, 21:52) [snapback]18731[/snapback]

Please tell us what should be the best valid solution for BabelZilla : you suggest we should have an ar language valid for whatever "ar-somewhere" may be needed ?


Yes, something like that. smile.gif This makes sense because [ar] appears in the language choices provided by firefox. One can safely think that this choice is valid.

QUOTE(Goofy @ Sep 5 2006, 21:52) [snapback]18731[/snapback]

(I previously set that ar langcode : shall I restore it now ?)


There seems to be a subtle difference between a language (in this case Arabic -> ar) and the locales related to it which contain more region-specific data such as currency, time, date, etc. I believe we care more about languages than locales, and internationalized softwares like Mozilla are supposed to enforce an inheritance mechanism between xx codes and their relates xx_yy locales. So, yes, the code should be ar, if that is not already the case.

QUOTE(Goofy @ Sep 5 2006, 21:52) [snapback]18731[/snapback]

btw : an Arab-speaking forum will probably be available in the coming hours smile.gif


Thank you sir, for your kind help! smile.gif

Mohammad

#8 Goofy

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 10:13 PM

GoofyNote to admin team : I set ar now, but don't delete ar-AR before relative locales are saved by users

Think Global, Make Locales!


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#9 mghoniem

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 12:55 AM

QUOTE(Goofy @ Sep 5 2006, 22:13) [snapback]18734[/snapback]

GoofyNote to admin team : I set ar now, but don't delete ar-AR before relative locales are saved by users


By the way, in locale names such as xx-YY, xx refers to the language code (refer to http://www.unicode.org/onlinedat/languages.html for a full list) while YY refers to a country code (see http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/i...ding_table.html for a full list). In our case, "ar" is the code of Arabic language and ar-YY refers the locale of the country YY.

If it existed, the locale ar-AR would refer to the Arabic language spoken in... Argentina! smile.gif

Best regards,

Mohammad

#10 Goofy

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 07:11 AM

QUOTE
If it existed, the locale ar-AR would refer to the Arabic language spoken in... Argentina!


Absolutely right laugh.gif
Though I am delighted with the idea of total mess, this dreadful aberration rolleyes.gif will be deleted soon.
Think Global, Make Locales!


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but you can also drop a word in the shoutbox

#11 mghoniem

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 04:52 PM

Greetings, Salam, Hello, Hola, smile.gif

http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/#Locale_Inheritance

If my understanding is correct, localized applications such as the Mozilla suite, would try to meet the user language setting in the following order :
  1. Look for the xx-YY-ZZ locale specified by the user
  2. Look for the xx-YY locale
  3. Look for the generic xx locale
  4. Look for the "root" locale
Where xx designates a language, YY designates a country and ZZ designates a regional variant.

Let's take an example:

Suppose my preference is set to "ar-EG-صعيدي"

The application tries to match this setting at best. If it fails, it tries to fall back on "ar-EG". If it fails, it tries to find "ar" and ultimately it retains the "root" locale (which is language independent).

This also means that if "ar-SA" exists, the system will not propose it automatically as the nearest substitue to "ar-EG-صعيدي" because there is no inheritance relation between them.

Now our aim is to serve the Arabic speaking community in general which, as most people acknowledge, speak the same classic Arabic language. Therefore, there is no point in duplicating the translation data/effort into numerous ar-YY identical locales. We should rather move to the two letter code "ar", unless someone does not use العربية الفصحى in his translations. Please let us know if this is the case. Of course, if someone is interested in providing "ar-EG-صعيدي" or any other ar-YY-ZZ variant, he/she is welcome to do that and we will then ask the administrators of Babelzilla to add that locale. smile.gif

I would suggest that all the Arabic translators in any variant move their localizations to the two letter code "ar" in order to best serve the interest of the arabic users.

Please feel free to point out any inaccuracies or errors that you see, and voice your point of view.

Salam

Mohammad

#12 NassimJD

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 01:54 AM

QUOTE(mghoniem @ Sep 11 2006, 15:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Greetings, Salam, Hello, Hola, smile.gif

http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/#Locale_Inheritance

If my understanding is correct, localized applications such as the Mozilla suite, would try to meet the user language setting in the following order :
  1. Look for the xx-YY-ZZ locale specified by the user
  2. Look for the xx-YY locale
  3. Look for the generic xx locale
  4. Look for the "root" locale
Where xx designates a language, YY designates a country and ZZ designates a regional variant.

Let's take an example:

Suppose my preference is set to "ar-EG-صعيدي"

The application tries to match this setting at best. If it fails, it tries to fall back on "ar-EG". If it fails, it tries to find "ar" and ultimately it retains the "root" locale (which is language independent).

This also means that if "ar-SA" exists, the system will not propose it automatically as the nearest substitue to "ar-EG-صعيدي" because there is no inheritance relation between them.

Now our aim is to serve the Arabic speaking community in general which, as most people acknowledge, speak the same classic Arabic language. Therefore, there is no point in duplicating the translation data/effort into numerous ar-YY identical locales. We should rather move to the two letter code "ar", unless someone does not use العربية الفصحى in his translations. Please let us know if this is the case. Of course, if someone is interested in providing "ar-EG-صعيدي" or any other ar-YY-ZZ variant, he/she is welcome to do that and we will then ask the administrators of Babelzilla to add that locale. smile.gif

I would suggest that all the Arabic translators in any variant move their localizations to the two letter code "ar" in order to best serve the interest of the arabic users.

Please feel free to point out any inaccuracies or errors that you see, and voice your point of view.

Salam

Mohammad




Just a quick note that I dealt with, is that sometimes when you translate something like ar-SA the system does not register it correctly , and you might end up finishing the project and it saying that there is no translater,,, go for the AR only translation to avoid such problems and waste of time.
After all the reason we are here is to translate for the language and not for the countries brought about by colonialism.



أن أكرمكم عند الله أتقاكم


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